Dialogue: Are rules/regulations necessary or maybe they are destructive? | Meditative Diaries

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Dialogue: Are rules/regulations necessary or maybe they are destructive?

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Yesterday, quite unexpectedly, a really great dialogue took place with a friend called Ioana. It has to do with the necessity or not of rules in our social life, in our relationships.. The conversation started from exploring if rules are necessary in a facebook group and it lead to some great findings for our relationships.

  • Ioana: Great group, by the way, congratulations
  • Jorge: I’ve done nothing, i just didn’t set any rules or regulations
  • Ioana: Yes, i saw that, maybe it’s better that way
  • Jorge: It would be silly to set rules, wouldn’t it? Outer restrictions have nothing to do with inner changing
  • Ioana: Disagree
  • Jorge: Please tell me what you think on that. Its very important, i think
  • Ioana: Sometimes, we have to restrict ourselves, i have, but it’s soooo hard. Somebody asked me to be the admin of a tantra group and there were many people only advertising and i restricted that. Honestly i think there are people there who haven’t meditated an hour in their entire life, they just talk and talk.Have u read Dune? it was one of my favourite book. And at some point, someone said there: if you look for freedom, you’ll never find it, but if you look for discipline, you will of course, its too strict, but there is some truth in it. Inner discipline is also important, discipline as not getting lost in so many things.
  • Jorge: The important question is, i think, whether limits put obstacles in self knowning..
  • Ioana: Define limits
  • Jorge: Limits set by intellect
  • Ioana: Such as?
  • Jorge: Such as “advertisement is forbidden”. I am not judging you of course
  • Ioana: Its not forbidden, but it should come with content
  • Jorge: Such as “advertisement should be forbidden if it doesn’t contain content”
  • Ioana: Some people left the group for too much advertising and they were amazing people
  • Jorge: Not setting rules doesn’t mean you can’t remove an advertisement. But the rule is very limiting factor , i think
  • Ioana: How can such a limit be an obstacle in self knowning? There is no self knowing in advertising or talking non-sense. Don’t you think there are also cosmic rules or inner rules which are beneficial? Which dont limit, but set a course of action somehow? Think of a retreat.. if there are no rules, there is no retreat
  • Jorge: If someone isn’t sensitive enough to see its silly to just advertise, or that its silly to kill people for pleasure, to set limits probably will make it even harder to see it.. no?
  • Ioana: I thought the same. But there are people who, until you tell them straight how things are, they just don’t get it and some of them pretend not to get it, because its easier for them this way. You make them conscious at some level if you tell them. And this might be seen as compassion, as the fact that you care
  • Jorge: You may show
  • Ioana: What do u mean?
  • Jorge: You may show someone that, for example, to advertise in a group where people inquire, search, doesn’t make much sense.. but to restrict, seems to be destructive.. which, i repeat, doesn’t mean that you should feel bad if you remove aa silly advertisement in this group
  • Ioana: What do u mean by that? “but to restrict, seems to be destructive..”
  • Jorge: To restrict someone from doing something, to suppress him, is destructive psychologically. You say no?
  • Ioana: There are different forms of restriction. If you restrict a child to get burnt, its a good restriction. It is the same with advertising
  • Jorge: Yes but this must be done with love, with compassion, not the slightest sign of anger or something like that
  • Ioana: It is and they still dont get it
  • Jorge: Sure they will continue doing that.. and you can just remove the advertisements.. no problem at all
  • Ioana: You are right, sometimes i don’t have so much love and compassion, but… i do what i can
  • Jorge: Sure, i don’t criticize you. We are in the same boat
  • Ioana: Or i may remove them from the group
  • Jorge: Or even that
  • Ioana: ..with kindness
  • Jorge: If it derives from an undivided heart, it can’t be wrong.. i’ve seen it with my cat, Tsitsos.. once she tries to eat my food, i take it away, but there is not the slightest sign of anger on my side. I think this is quite crucial. I take my food away while i am almost hugging/kissing her.
  • Ioana: Yes, it is!
  • Jorge: But see, Ioana, how important it is to abandon rules, limits, restrictions in our daily life, in our relationships
  • Ioana: How did you get to this gentleness? just by abandoning the rules?
  • Jorge: I am not that gentle, i am doing silly things all the time
  • Ioana: Gentle people might do silly things
  • Jorge: There is this belief “its necessary that at least some limitation exist” , but once you see this doesn’t lead anywhere, you may try effortlessly, with happiness to throw away rules.. and you do this and surprisingly you see it works and then you do it even more willingly and there is a bliss of freedom, if i may say that!
  • Ioana: Yes, you’re right
  • Jorge: So great that you are so sensitive to see this
  • Ioana: So, for you, there is no situation when you would need rules?
  • Jorge: Its not a matter of opinion.. i am exploring that.. how deep can we go, if its possible to abolish rules totally
  • Ioana: I see
  • Jorge: Probably people would die because of that but people still die even with rules

Comments

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Jorge Kapa

The speaker is never important but you may examine the message, if you wish

54 Comments

    • also:

      To comprehend and govern all processes, all events from the growing of the blade of grass to the movements of the Cosmic spheres at all times, as also the numerous parallel Realities, even for a God Absolute would be overwhelming and unnecessary.
      That is why in many Spiritual teachings, such as Malinivijayottara tantra, Apocryphon of John, Gurjieff’s fourth way, the Reality is Hierarchical.
      According to Gurjieff the Will of Absolute is not manifested on this earthly plane of existence. Earthly existense is governed by the 48 mechanical laws.
      In Apocryphon of John, there are sertain mistakes (creations of lower orders, without the will, or consent of the Absolute) are taking place at the beginning of creation.
      In the Malinivijayottara tantra creation is again described as a Hierarchical descent into Maya.
      Many yogic systems (Kashmir Shaivaism and others) are showing Hierarchical structure of Reality as a descent of Tattvas (Thatness) from Siva – Sakti down to the gross earth element.
      Yoga is a process of dissolution of Tattvas (liberation from the mechanical laws) and ascendance of Consciousness – Intelligence to a new levels of Lucidity, to a Superperciever – Superexperiencer.
      Self – Realisation is Moksha – Kayvalya – the Liberation from all restrictions and all mechanical laws.
      It is said in many scriptures that not all Shakties (the Energies-Intelligences) of the Absolute are friendly. Some of them are trying to drown Jivas in the ocean of Samsara. Some, such as MATR’KA can bound individual by the power of “Word” – idea – concept.
      Shaktopaya Yoga is the movement towards liberation through the knowledge of Mantra – Matr’ka.
      And so, the Absolute does not require to govern the processes and events.
      The sequences of Letters (Mantras) -(Kali – Malini -Matr’ka), Numbers and Geometry (Lalita – Tripura Sundari) set in motion, do all the job.
      When One is Liberated, there are no laws left. Only the Absolute Freedom.
      Yoga is the way to Liberation.
      Jai Siva-Sakti

  1. ….so…what is a “rule”…? something like a “law”…? And, what is it for…? As we are humas…do we have to be reminded not to forget that…? And…what is “humanity”…? Is it necesseary to remind us to live our lifes with compassion, kindness, respect, freedom…? …just questions for the mind, I think….

    • Hey Thomas, any kind of intellectual reminding seems to make no sense, i think only a deeper reminding, that comes from .. i don’t know.. from the core of our existence (?) is possible to work.. if you, or a law, or a rule reminds me to be kind, generous, the best that can happen is that i will try to apply your guidance/advice.. which is simply mimiticism, submission.. do you think this is wrong?

    • …no, this is not wrong, Jorge, and I appreciate your questions! So…for “myself”…every smile is a beautiful lesson, each loving educating advice of a loving mom to her kid is something like a “rule”…and your question has been essential for all the societies here on earth….and perhaps it will be very important for the future…

    • Jorge i see a rule as something coming from inside, and not from the level of mind. It’s not something imposed from outside, but something coming out from inside. Like some laws of the universe, let’s say. Like mangos ripe in warm temperature – it’s a rule. They don’t ripe at north pole.

    • Ioana Lazarescu yes these internal rules is all we need, this is what i found.. but again someone that is lost in ideas, comes and tries to kill another.. and then fear comes.. we should be extraordinarily present for this fear not to dominate us

    • Ioana Lazarescu i think the best to do is to act once we see someone trying to kill another, rather than hoping that outer rules rules will be effective reminders..you say no?

  2. Assuming that we live in a civilized society, rules that humiliate, restrict make one feel like a prisoner due to societal pressure & expectations should be deleted from our emotional computer & one should click restart & build a more humane, gentle , loving world . However if self delete of the rules imposes & impacts the rights & the freedom of another human been then one should reconsider out of respect for his fellow man a way that it will be respectable & acceptable for all. However, if a terminally ill person was in need of meds that was not able to afford & despite all efforts to plead with the owner of the pharmacy to give the med & be paid at a later time and still get a refusal from him THEN if later that nite the relative of the ill person breaks into the store thus braking the rule & steals the medication then this person’s act based in the hierarchy of morality , he has my blessings! It all depends on what kind of rules one breaks & ultimately if he is capable of being free without belonging to the herd. It takes lots of guts that few people have thus the classic ” Escape from freedom” by Erich Fromm. This is a huge discussion that cannot be argued with superficial words just for the sake of making conversation or at least this is how I feel about this touchy issue. Thanks!

  3. There is this belief “its necessary that at least some limitation exist” , but once you see this doesn’t lead anywhere, you may try effortlessly, with happiness to throw away rules.. and you do this and surprisingly you see it works and then you do it even more willingly and there is a bliss of freedom, if i may say that!

  4. Dear Iona and George and all…after reading your dialogue it suddenly came to me about ‘rules and regulations’, that to ‘obey in Love’ is all that is needed….Love is orderly, sane, compassionate..To start from rules is to start from thought, from disorder…-Living this with children…we have no ‘home rules’ etc, but instead, witnessing the order, the willingness to ‘obey’ (in love!!) in them…so no problems…We do not seem to realise how there is nothing separate from love (‘rules’) that is needed..

  5. Compassion, love, also implies inner austerity in the sense of being alert to oneself, one’s possible reactions etc, and that capacity in action is the most efficient ‘rule’..:-)

  6. nothing more is needed.. but we need to feel it, not to intellectually grasp it.. (your) words point that out very clear.. it all depends on us.. to see the truth of it

  7. (i would love it to meet you if possible) .. quite right, i’ve had the joy to be in a class with such a teacher.. but then i wasn’t very able to grasp it. – yes presence is the only “rule”.. how beautiful this is :) and presence can’t be reminded intellectualy, verbally

  8. right….thank you so much…have to go…well said, you cannot be REMINDED to be present, you can be reminded only of the things of the mind!! (RE-MIND, to be back to the mind to repeat it!)…but you can be shaken awake to this moment..(thoughts shaken away for light to come to you)

  9. Rules are made by people who rule. Sanity makes rules automatically… No need to govern is the first rule.

    Let it be.
    Insanity needs care and love not rules or laws …

  10. Guidelines to avoid traffic problems are guidelines…we make them as laws. Fear is used as a tool by humanity for teaching sanity …?
    Why?
    Because the insane can never be sane.
    This is what they believe.
    We are sane. Nobody believes us.

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