Dialogue: Are we totally Responsible for the inner and outer Chaos? | Meditative Diaries

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responsibility

Dialogue: Are we totally Responsible for the inner and outer Chaos?

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We had a conversation the other day, below this diary regarding the tragedy in Paris which took many days in order to be completed and i would like to share it because I think it shows clearly  that we are directly and totally responsible for the chaos we experience everyday.

The dialogue between me and Clive is quite long (you can read it in the end of the diary i mentioned above).. we were discussing about the meaning of responsibility, trying at the same moment to locate whether we are responsible regarding such atrocities like the one that happened in Paris.   I’m just placing here the last part of the dialogue:

  • Clive: Yes, it is certainly true that our perception is fragmented, which is a great limitation, and brings about violence and great mischief. And sorrow of course. I am still inquiring into my relationship with the horrors of the world; exactly how I am responsible for them. You did not reply to the question on my previous mail – which meaning do you put on the word ‘responsible’?
  • George: My previous answer was implying that once i bring about division, i am responsible for the whole mess (including the chaos in Paris). Someone could intellectually approach it and say “it’s not obvious that i am responsible for a specific tragedy”.. obviously i can’t prove how me bringing division could lead to the atrocity in Paris, i am not implying i know what is the exact connection, but to me its clear i am responsible.. to put it in different words, we must ask ourselves honestly whether we are responsible for all the chaos in humanity. Probably the answer will be much more clear than every intellectual argumentation.
  • Clive: You still have not given an answer to the question that I have asked twice. I will try repeating it here: “There are two somewhat different meanings to the word ‘responsible’, is there not? One, it means ‘i have caused this’. Two, it means I feel a strong movement to respond adequately, to do what I can, to solve the problem as much as is possible. In your last sentence, which meaning did you intend? Or maybe both.” Finally, looking at your last mail, most of the common identifications – of religion, race, nationality, politics, etc, have dropped away from me (not by some conscious act, but naturally, easily, by seeing the implications of such identification. So I have no concept of belonging to any nation. Does this mean that I am no longer responsible for nationalistic divisions and war?
  • George: I have to say a few things on the example about nationalism.. you may not carry the burden of nationalism but if you carry other identifications like “being jealous” “not accepting to to be treated violently” or “all we need is love” etc.. carrying a few identifications/images/ideas and not carrying others doesn’t mean we are not responsible for the division.. oh, something is coming.. if we don’t separate the discussion in topics like “the problem of nationalism” “the problem of racism” “the fear for a world war” etc and we just see the root of all them, which is division, things get much clear. Either we follow a few (more or less) identifications and we are absolutely responsible for division or not so we are totally not responsible. Is this notice any helpful? In any case we don’t need to agree or disagree.. we are carefully listening one each other with affection and probably the truth or falseness of our sayings will appear sooner or later!

Comments

comments

Jorge Kapa

The speaker is never important but you may examine the message, if you wish

16 Comments

  1. All of us, if not at all the times, but at some times; we face some confusion and conflict and it compells us to look for some solution. My solution has to begin from ME and from the situation I am in NOW … Thus I have to start with myself by inquiring my own reality. Ramana Maharishi said that knowing oneself is the greatest service to mankind.

  2. From the spiritual perspective we are responsible if we are in duality and yet while we are in duality we see the ‘other’ as responsible and ourselves as not so. From the spiritual perspective when we are in unity we are responsible because there is only ONE and only it can be responsible for all and yet if we are in unity, there is no individual to be responsible only what IS. And so perhaps the answer is, as with all other truths I’ve encountered, yes, and no. As the Sufis put it, the answer to every significant question concerning God and the world is ‘Yes and No’ or expressed otherwise ‘He/not He’ (Allah) (huwa lā huwa)

    • I use the ‘spiritual perspective’ to make a point that however you look at it, intellectually, you arrive at the same ‘maybe yes, maybe no’ answer. And herein lies the limitation of inquiry… At some point perhaps we find the only solution is to limit thinking to what is necessary for survival. And I mean that quite literally – not, ignore spiritual inquiry and watch reality TV, but actually drastically limit all thinking in favour of present awareness. Intellectually we have nothing but a range of perspectives, or lenses, with which to view anything … If we were in ‘no mind’ unity, these perspectives would be meaningless, however if we are in enquiry using the mind, have we anything other than a range of perspectives and can we hope to achieve anything but ‘from perspective ‘X’, I see view ‘Y’? See Ken Wilbur’s famous Four Quadrants……

    • Amy Louise Gilmore can’t agree more Amy.. the mind creates confusion, compares, says “i am not very responsible, Obama is more responsible”, so while we are in this groove of intellect, there will be only limited, confusing responses..

      Now is there a method, a technique to limit thought to the necessary, practical things?

    • Good question and I can only answer it in my limited way. There are many methods but the method must be actually used! and they are necessarily limited (they must be let go of at the right time).The mind loves to learn a new method but hates to practise it (especially if it’s designed to control the mind), then dismisses that method (boring, doesn’t work) and looks for others. Any method would do, observing the breath continuously, bringing attention to the body, paying attention to sensory perception, concentrating on the beating of the heart….Anything that breaks the mental flow and focuses the mind on something in the present. An alternative (to disciplined practise) is if a person can find another who is resonating with the frequency of ‘no mind’ and spend time with them. This frequency is contagious for those who are seeking it and on these occasions we are able to see again that the disciplined practises are merely sign-posts along the way to vibrationally remembering this frequency. Then there are people who have received this frequency spontaneously through some kind of grace that often follows deep and continuous suffering, and so it’s possible to see that there is almost as many ways to limit thinking as there are ways to think! What is your method?

  3. Every being is responsible for whole of his/her being and related perceptions etc.
    There is a reason why one perceive terror as for example. There is a reason why things are done.
    Heavy things are done by heavy egos. Heavy things perceived with endless emotions ….need heavy ego too.
    In fact , spiritual point of view, …is to understand why one tend to be soo much attached to some outside world….to such ego who is mad about to perceiving endless things….and act&react on it.
    It’s just a reaction on oneself.
    The whole world is a reflection of such (spiritual) ego….who need to learn that it’s All him/herSelf.
    Better to start creating better perceptions and a better world…..instead to hide behind “Oneness”….as the One Illusory world One is.

  4. Yes we are, thoughts create and we are all powerful creators.

    We are all the same, divided by the color of our skin, region, and the beliefs of our land. We are 99.9999999% the same…. And the Earth, isn’t it one body of land with water flowing through it? And aren’t we a body of land made of 70% water? The differences lie in our mind, which reflect back our senses… And the senses but the veil of illussion that we believe is life? And we believe in the illussion so much that we mistake the differences ( 0.00000000001% ) for who a person truly is instead of the 99.999999999% that makes us all the same. These are facts and we have choices. We are responsible for what we create.

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