Is there justice at all? | Meditative Diaries

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injustice

Is there justice at all?

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Would you agree that almost all of us suffer more or less because of issues of injustice? Let’s take a very wide approach of the word “justice” not referring just to the legal things, to law, but also in relationships, regarding what is fair and what is not. Isn’t it right that most of us suffer (psychologically) from this sense that what happens to us is not fair? Friends complain about the frustrating unfair social system, volunteers say NGOs treat refugees and volunteers unfairly, NGOs complain on how bad do volunteers treat them, people get irritated with the fact that NGOs offer a good salary to the people they recruit etc. There is always around a sense of irritation because of unfair treatment, because of injustice. But what is justice? Isn’t it a consolidation of principles about what is right and what is wrong made from the human mind? Justice didn’t exist before human mind and justice will end with the ceasing of human mind. Justice is real, but justice is not true. Made by the partial human mind, justice is necessarily partial, objective.. this as result necessarily creates immense confusion.. several objective codes of justice rise in several societies.. also several personal codes of justice are created. The most unexpected finding is that it’s quite common that one goes against one’s own code of justice.

So i blame the totally unfair social system and at the same moment i take advantage of it for my personal interest.. and then i justify myself saying “i had no choice”.. or i say “it’s unfair that he works 2 hours everyday and makes $100 while i work 10 hours everyday and make $30″.. the question is who says this is unfair?.. and if the one i complain about raises the question “but isn’t it unfair that i invested some money and took an important risk while you didn’t took this risk.. so it would be unfair if i wouldn’t enjoy this privilege”. In such a disagreement both parts can express dozens of arguments and if we are serious at all we will see that such discussion actually never ends. Why? Because we speak of justice and justice being something partial, it creates only confusion.. that’s its nature.

Now if we see its falseness, its partial nature, the very moment that we sink into this sense that we are victims of injustice, probably this sense evaporates!

PS: Once someone seriously questions the actual basis of justice/injustice many escape from another “emergency exit”..  of identifying with the physical needs.. so once someone sees that psychologically there is no reason to worry about injustice one may call on the physical necessity that this injustice should end because its crucial for one’s own survival. This makes confusion even more intense..

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Jorge Kapa

The speaker is never important but you may examine the message, if you wish

99 Comments

    • You have selected a beautiful appropriate qoute of K here, but within one needs to be careful.
      Society is gentle warm and sensible , humanity is not always foolish. I need love and joy to be free from conflict within, the outer conflicts subside only than,
      A few remain but I handle them sanely when I love my own being and don’t disturb it by stupid conflicts. I just let go simply. No attachment to my just demands, moving on is the key….

  1. Do you think that you have justice? Justice – briefly talking – do not reflect the universal morality itself? When law and court rulings do not reflect morality, can we talk about justice? What should be justice and what it is in fact? There is unrelated with its essence.

    • i think there is no justice at all.. all these are just creations of the human mind, so meaningless, so non sensical..

      when all these efforts for justice made by humans cease, probably then an absolute, completely wise justice will appear which has nothing to do with what we experience about it.

  2. When man will know how to impose their own limits, when man will look at the other in the same way like at himself, when he will cease to compare, to accumulate material goods, to gain access over others at any price, only then – perhaps – the human being would not need for justice.

    • So, if somebody wish to kill you, is free to do that because freedom is absolute, right? Freedom is not for all stupid and insane ppl. Freedom is for intelligent ppl. They know how to manage with it whitout hurting others.

    • There’s a saying: It’s not that anything goes; it’s just that everything goes. I suspect Jorge refers to absolute freedom. Shanti, you seem to looking at relative freedom.

    • Absolute freedom is an illusion. Always we, as human beings, we will depend by something: meal, house, air, warm, light so on. Absolute freedom – theoretically – means to not depend on anyone or anything.

    • But the direction of this inquiry would go further into consciousness. Is the sense of justice, as checks and balances in relationship, intelligent? Or is it a construct founded on division of thought?

    • Shanti Ralsen i think we shouldn’t confuse freedom with doing whatever i like.. i thinks this has nothing to do with freedom.. people can be absolutely free without doing whatever comes in mind.. yes Philip is right, i am referring to absolute freedom, psychologically speaking..

    • Absolute freedom – psychologically talking – it is possible. Mind can’t be imprisoned. Anyone can be free in mind if has enough imagination. It is not necessary to think outside the box but to imagine that box is not there….

    • Shanti Ralsen i’m really sorry if i somehow bothered you. i just want to investigate with you.. is freedom to imagine things?

      What would you say about the freedom from psychological desire?

    • Jorge, do you think – as a human being – that you can become completely free from your wishes/desires? No, you can’t do that. We have material bodies. When we will transcend into spirit (energy) then… we will be absolutely free.

    • There are many forms of freedom; one of them is the freedom of imagination, freedom of thought, freedom of obligations so on… but total freedom from psychological desire… no, not as long as I am in this body. Why do you think that is possible, Jorge?

    • Freedom from the desire to be…safe or comfortable, opens out life to pure potential. Only one cannot control, contain or direct life, as justice seeks to do in human affairs. In that sense, justice is a human bubble.

    • Jorge, I am agree with you as long as you say you experienced moments of total detachment from desires. But I was not talking about absolute freedom fragmented. I talk about only one absolut freedom what has being ongoing at a time x to the death. So, I can do the same things like you but this is not a fair answer to your question.

    • Shanti Ralsen yes its one thing to experience a few moments of freedom and another to be absolutely free. But you say its not possible a human being to absolutely free psychologically? I don’t say its possible, i say ‘i don’t know”

    • Yes, it is not possible bcz we FEEL! Our material body feels. Maybe you think that absolute freedom in a very small way, not in a large one, at a universal scale. It is not enough to make 1-3 experiments for a few minutes or days and to take a final conclusion after all. Look at this infinite picture. Just imagine that picture without beginning and end.

    • Shanti Ralsen but i don’t see why feeling is an obstacle to freedom.. to feel the cold wind, the fire, to feel my feet touching the ground.. with the word “feelings” you mean emotions, like anger and jealousy?

  3. A fool once said that justice is just-ice. In this sense, it is not a principle, code or philosophy. It is neither about perpetrator nor victim. To perceive fully the nature of the frozen (products of the human mind) is to bring on the thaw. So to see the unhealthy nature of the social and the psychological (which Shanti has well described) intelligence brings about a restorative action – to what is true. It has nothing to do with punishment or compensation. There are programmes out there based on restorative justice – based on healing connection. And so, this exploration could well be the movement of justice, as attention seeks to expose what is frozen.

  4. A beautiful recent quote from a friend seems relevant…
    “Compassion is scary. Compassion gives way to forgiveness and non-judgment. This trio – compassion, forgiveness, non-judgment – feels like moral anarchy. Compassion is scary for those who feel lost without strict moral guidelines. Forgiveness confuses the overly-moralistic mind, it blurs the comforting lines in the sand. The silence of non-judgment spooks the mind that has come to rely on the thundering rhetoric of moralizing the complexity of the world into the over-simplified “rights” and “wrongs.””

    • obviously not.. what was implied here is that all such codes, laws, justice, moral values, all these are a partial creation of the human mind, which inevitably leads to division.. isn’t this accurate?

    • One thing that hasn’t been mentioned is expectation. From what I can see, these laws, values, rules, etc that we create cause expectation to develop out of them. This is where the upset comes from, because we have an expectation that we will be treated in a way that we deem fair all of the time. I have heard it said that expectation is the source of all upset. It seems to be the case.

    • Yes, I think so. So if one is hit with a hammer on one hand, one might learn to hammer more mindfully or to wear gloves, etc. But one might not necessarily ask for retribution. One might not even focus their attention on the other hand at all.

    • If a man is crossing a river and an empty boat collides with his own skiff,
      even though he be a bad-tempered man he will not become very angry.
      But if he sees a man in the boat, he will shout at him to steer clear.
      If the shout is not heard, he will shout again, and yet again, and begin cursing.
      And all because there is somebody in the boat.
      Yet if the boat were empty, he would not be shouting, and not angry.

      If you can empty your own boat crossing the river of the world,
      no one will oppose you, no one will seek to harm you….

    • Yes. This is true, psychologically. And life will be life, existentially. We may throb with pain and stress which awareness alerts to those operations of thought interfering, but suffering is no longer sustained.

    • Yes, one doesn’t focus on the other hand at all. But in restorative justice, the connection is the healing. Bringing the perpetrator face to face with the other, is to break the disconnection. Is emptiness really the answer, or a human heart? Does it have to be one or the other?

    • In ultimate reality, we are never not connected and no connection can be broken. In the reality of the mind, there exists perpetrator and other. Human heart in conventional reality, emptiness is ultimate reality. Both coexist.

    • Yes, ultimately, emptiness in all its qualities is the unbreakable bond between everything – no experience, requires no justice. Jorge asks whether it is possible to live from this absolutely. Shanti says not possible. You say they coexist, and i find mysrlf agreeing with you. What next?

    • I think that existing in the world of perceiving forms puts us in the position of working with form. I think that being conscious as much as possible that the forms are perceived naturally solves the problem because we no longer see the movie in front of us as reality. So rather than concerning ourselves with rules, morality, expectations, and seeking justice, we flow naturally. No? Did I answer the question? :)

    • I guess I’m saying that skillful means become natural and spontaneous when we’re conscious of ultimate reality, as distinct from when we had to impose them on ourselves. So the what next is just an outflowing of the unfolding moment?

    • Yes. Thought, emotion and sensation can be indicators as to what’s happening in the psychological environment, ie where one is located, meaning, etc. But this is more often than not indicative of one’s own psychological state and narrative. Perceiving this is the action which solves the problem, and all attempts to control, contain and direct are seen for what they are. Absolutely. I’m now sensing that absolute freedom is free from, dissolves the psychological problems until it remains as a form of intelligence or sensitivity or empathy in compassionate living.

  5. Justice is just a concept, like karma; cause and effect, being but an isolated perspective, out of endless relationships of imaginary phenomenal entities.

    There is only ‘what is’ and ‘spontaneity’,
    … Which is Not a just a ‘concept’.

    • this is what i wanted to point out.. justice is necessarily just a concept. As for freedom, there are many concepts of freedom (almost everybody has one) but it seems there is a quality of freedom that is not conceptual

    • Real Justice is Natural and Spontaneous.
      It is not something put together by thought.
      It is not just a concept or an Ideal.
      It is not the ‘Should Be’.

      IT is simply the freedom from the ‘psychological self’, with its conditioning, and ‘psychological becoming.
      … Not the ‘concept’, but the ‘Actuality’.

      IT is simply Natural Seeing, and Spontaneity.
      … Which is Love and Compassion.

  6. When I love me I love you too. Justice is ingrained in this relationship….
    We wanted simple leisure and security , not to quarrel for food shelter and mate.
    We tapped into the creative intelligence of Nature. We grew food , found and made shelter, we started to live as family. Life became simpler, thinking in time made me wiser than the other animals, I thought it did? So I continued to think and make a living. It has many benefits. But I violated Nature’s law? I avoided vunrebality. I took over natures responsibility. This choice has serious side effects, it made me feel separated from the whole, I became I, the spec felt disconnected from the very environment it existed in. Natural justice and evolution was disrupted… Now I live with burdens and responsibility… Hmm,
    I seek justice. My sanity demands equality and peace.
    I lost my inner joy and love, but my rationality wants me to be loved and cared for?
    The essence I lost by my thinking and trying to be as wise as nature was my innocence. Innocence is my nature, it exsists in the wholeness of Love. Joy, gentleness, compassion and innocence are natural nature of my being…this separation is the crisis and disputes.

  7. Jorge thanks for posting this for consideration. It’s something I’ve briefly been looking at from time to time.

    I have found that having inherited a sense of justice has been a very painful thing indeed. There is something about having a sense of justice which acts as an instant reflex by which one is enraged by the perceived injustice. This sense of justice acts so fast that it doesn’t allow one to look at the thoughts and the circumstances that have caused the reflex to act. A lighting fast reflex takes hold of the body each time one reads any news about of a perceived injustice, a dishonest politician, politics being played with the lives of refugees, the wars in Syria and the actions our politicians will take to secure oil. On opening a newspaper and reading about these matters there is always an instant reaction affecting the body. When one looks at these reactions one can sometimes start to see or feel a “connected system” moving from the words to the body. It would seem that the affect in the body gives a greater sense of reality to this perceived injustice……

    These days…rather than being moved by injustice I have decided to sit back and watch exactly what is going on with this whole “connected system.”

    Heather Kilgore thanks for that brilliant quite from Merton. Bohm noted something similar stating something to the following effect……we are enraged when someone keeps us waiting, say for instance at a train station. We get annoyed, and think continually of how that person has no respect, “who do they think they are keeping me waiting!!”, having no decency to advise of their lateness etc etc. Our continual thinking affects the body. The body gets disturbed and this then sends information to the brain. The brain sees this bodily affect as an independent event, which then gets blamed on the person that is late. The person who is late has now become responsible for the way I am feeling. It is his fault!! But when the person finally turns up and tells us that he was in an accident on his way to the meeting…..our sense of indignation soon resides. We then internally say to ourselves “perhaps I was wrong….he didn’t mean to keep me waiting”….

    Injustice seems to be a connecting factor between outside events and our inner working. As in the Merton example and as above, and as per world events it is seriously flawed and fragmented and leads to even more disastrous events, as what is outside and what is consequentially inside probably isn’t being looked at from the whole…..but from a perspective of fragmentation…..

  8. Following from the above…..A question one may look at in relation to injustice is to ask whether that which is being perceived on the outside is actually as what the inside is reporting it to be……

  9. “as what is outside and what is consequentially inside probably isn’t being looked at from the whole…..but from a perspective of fragmentation”….. says it all…

  10. It seems that thought, emotion and sensation can be indicators as to what’s happening in the psychological environment, ie where one is located, meaning, etc. But as Chan Chan has clearly said, this is more often than not indicative of one’s own psychological state and narrative. Perceiving this is the action which solves the problem, and all attempts to control, contain and direct are seen for what they are. So absolute freedom dissolves the psychological problems. Thought, emotion and bodily sensations may or may not continue, but it may act as a form of intelligence or sensitivity or empathy in compassionate living. There is simply no sense of separation as implied in justice/injustice.

    • This is really good stuff!! “All attempts to control, contain and direct are seen for what they are”…….I think that this is all working towards, and is part of the “what is”

  11. Justice or injustice must not have a negative effect upon me. There has to be absolutely no psychological reaction to any injustice general or directed upon me. This can be attained not by protecting myself but be an individual. Being an individual there is emptiness inside us. This emptiness is extremely alive and it cannot be touched negatively. Not being in this state one is vulnerable , all are happening and as there is psychological dependency on the happenings one is trying to protect oneself based on ideas not knowing what it means psychological freedom complete independency on others. Only a free mind can see the fact of injustice and be absolutely not affected by it to act , if it is possible , properly. What it should be or it should not be is for a dull mind and all the injustice is out of this dullness , being a victim of the society.

    • So there is no vulnerability in psychological freedom? Ok, perceiving the illusory nature of the image, that is the end of such suffering. Psychological freedom could also be relaxing INTO vulnerability, certainly with regards to existence. That would also be intelligence in contact with actuality? There are certainly no rights or justice when it comes to raw existence.

    • Yes. We know that it means indivisible. And what does that mean? What should it be or not be? What does feeling or sensitivity mean? Do we feel imbalance, just as animals express stress in endangered habitats? Isn’t that vulnerabilty simply information intelligence operates on? Attunement to energy free from psychological resistance? It is beyond our conditiined habits of naming, is it not?

  12. Hurt ego, revenge, upmanship, vendetta many words come to mind which hide in garb of the word justice. Sorrow caused by violence of another human being is looking for relieve, I wonder if sorrow heals with vendetta alone ? Fear of law is the only practical solution in human society at the moment. And worst of all We still don’t know how to deal with sorrow .

  13. Yes, justice is a form of relief, like any comforting ideas which seeks to tame the friction of living. Fear lies behind all one’s seeking. And it seems we cannot willfully end it. All we can do is observe it…

  14. Various concepts, as thoughts , one after another, giving importance to them, are keeping the mind in a state of inattention. Not trying to see Wright or wrong , living beyond judgements , the mud of thoughts is settling down, one is entering in deep peace and out of this peace complete attention , attention as the free effortless flow of energy. This energy is awareness and maybe it is everywhere. So , one connected with this energy , doing absolutely nothing, not only one is not vulnerable but one is opened to knew unknown for the distracted mind feelings. Ego is making to much noise wanting to save the society as a mean of escaping . One cannot imagine that one might be completely independent on others .

  15. Perceiving the illusory nature of the image. …See no harm to anything that is happening inside us , as thoughts , images, negative feelings , then the energy of attention is transforming negativity and not one concept against another. All concepts are in the same category , then the seeing is clear , not influenced by any concept.

  16. The following of any idea is making the mind distracted. So, the mind , out of stillness , is reflecting dispassionately everything that is happening. The movement of the mind is the focusing to see , to distinguish, depending on ideas, on previous knowledge , what it should happen and what it should not happen , so one excluding , fighting the negative is creating more negativity. Psychologically everything is in its proper place .The effort of putting in order things is the mess. So , not focusing to the mess there is no mess.

  17. It seems the planet or Nature is ‘feeling’ given the evidence of stress in ecosystems, and conditions will change in the way of natural selection. Yet i drive a car and consume, in reality dependent in this complex social system. This is a fact. And this stress seems to be getting worse both locally and globally. No, this cannot be fought.

  18. What seeks to come into consciousness. ….Staying still there is no left space for anything to be expressed , as the unconscious mind. So the conscious mind , as presence, is expanding and everything is becoming conscious. So , we are never leaving our position , (Neither trying to keep it…), and this is the essence of division , feeling that something exists , or better , that it is having the potential to exist without our focusing on it , be identified with it. So , do not mind for what it is happening is holding on our position effortlessly. Then , what is us, as the essence , is expressing itself and the expression is us , not us separate from the energy. For this to happen , everything that is happening is us , never watch it as separate , it means that everything is reflected . Observer and thoughts are one and both are reflected without the noise of me is reflecting them…..

  19. Division out of confusion has great depth as the oness…..Seeing the danger of division or the division itself, one is feeling with the whole of the being that all are me , and after this shock, thought and it’s world, is never considered as not me.

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