The art of discussion | Meditative Diaries

TO LIVE IS TO DIE

discussion

The art of discussion

162
Share on Facebook0Tweet about this on TwitterShare on Google+0

Are we aware of the inner battle that takes place during a discussion, especially when the opinions of the debaters are different? Are we aware of the really painful emotion that something is in danger when we discuss with someone who doesn’t agree with our point of view? Are we aware of the emotion of satisfaction and safety we feel once there is absolute agreement? It seems these two reactions are the opposite sides of the same coin. Two people are sitting together discussing about a problem of life..

Recall all the qualities that rise during a conversation. Either we agree which means nothing is threatened. Our idea which is under investigation is absolutely safe while the other part confirms its right. Which gives energy to further attack all those who disagree with our point. There is a peculiar, brutal pleasure, we become aggresive, sarcastic, against those that don’t meet our view. On the other hand, once there is disagreement, there is a rise of all the opposite emotions like agony, anxiety. If we watch them carefully the moment this happens we will find out its a fear that is hidden below this anxiety. It seems most of the times we are not aware even of the superficial agony so its not possible to locate the fear. But if we are willing to observe, if we are serious at all, we will be able to reveal this fear and penetrate deeper.

I would like to ask this question, what is this that is in danger when arguing.. isn’t it the survival of a fixed idea that is in danger? I’ve created an idea and i invest energy on this idea, probably for years. Then there is a discussion and somebody threatens my idea. So there is fear because i am attached to this idea, my Ego needs this idea to be valid in order to feel safe. Ego doesn’t mind if this idea is completely false, inaccurate, the only thing that matters is to keep the idea safe. So it recruits all possible tricks, including sarcasm, aggression etc.

Two people are sitting together discussing about a problem of life. Is it possible for them to be aware of all this brutal game? Is it possible to realize that the only thing that is threatened is a false idea? Nothing of true value is in danger. Is there anything wrong in destroying a false idea? Or is it only bringing close to what is, to living in Now? So there is a discussion and a conditioned man resists, attacks, defend his idea. Once there is a moment of clarity, a gap before reacting (attacking, defending, resisting) its possible to be aware of the whole absurdity of the reaction.. probably then its possible to actually see fear, to understand it and then fear is not. And once fear is not there is a sense of absolute safety, nothing to be lost, the two discussers come naturally closer, as two friends, examining the problems of life, so as to find what is, free from their conflicting ideas. Then the discussers are not vulnerable to hurt. And then discussion is an art, an art full of love, which fires compassion. The two discussers care for each other, the possibility of hurt and fear is absent and then actual investigation, deeper penetration, finding out, is possible.. and then there is immense passion, beauty and joy..

Comments

comments

Jorge Kapa

The speaker is never important but you may examine the message, if you wish

162 Comments

  1. Truth is in its isness … no proof, no validity or no argument is needed. The one who lives in truth is in absolute conflict less zone. Paradox is when one is blessed with truth, one does not find oneself superior to anybody. So, where there is heating argument that means both are shooting in dark.

  2. Social conditioning is very strong. This form of dialogue is far removed from daily life. So Antonio makes an important point about imitation. Radical honesty is fearless in allowing what is to be. Light cannot be seen till it hits something. How else to meet the world. And yes, one must take care of one’s energy, not waste it. How can one tell? Otherwise, it’s close to choosing and filtering interactions to a standard. Perhaps trust is neede. Perhaps this can only be when there is a clear understanding as to what dialogue isn’t.

  3. Yes. IT is in the ‘gap’ – the ‘psychological gap’ between two thoughts, yet IT still – even so remains immanent – none the less, as the essence of All That Is, yet simultaneously transcendent.

    The original question appears to be asking if there can be a level of understanding and natural affection with others, so that beyond the dry intellectual communication, there is also the communion of affection, which has the best interest of the those communicated to/with, at heart.

  4. I understand you are not discussing the ‘dialogue’ per se. Therefore, perhaps this is naive of me to write, however, I just thought I’d share… I thoroughly enjoy having my ‘opinions’ challenged and changed — as it makes for a more colourful & evocative world to live in. I like to be fluid & I like to ‘agree to disagree’ with people, so maybe I am more comfortable than I thought with ‘discussion’. I believe that wisdom is in the listening & it is also better to be kind than to be right.

    • Jennifer, if all these happen conceptually, because of a habitual tendency, its in the same groove.. only seeing the reactions that arise during a discussion the moment they arise, it seems possible to deidentify and naturally communicate (actually communicate)..

  5. A beautiful and the actual fact has been brought out to understand the life that it is the ideas created by one when confronted tries to sustain itself and opposition arises. This if identifying with ideas without negotiations leads to enmity leading to the level of world wars.

  6. ‘It is important to be kind than right’
    Otherwise the discussion will not serve any purpose emotionally.
    When words are born in concern and affection we accept their wisdom easily,

    Having said that there is a learning curve to every subject and skill in life.
    Relationships are based on our communication skills and our inner nature. Both play a part.
    How we speak or discuss and communicate keeps evolving, we always improving this skill.
    Our moods reflect in our talk.
    Meditation has shown to help remain in positive moods; gentle and deeply reflective about our inner feelings.

    Humility to see thoughts as thoughts and not our true inner self is the key.

    We are bundles of joy , we may make sense at times we may remain fools.. Joy and affection are rarely effected by words.
    Stuborness,
    Hurt ego and negativity can only dissolve when I really love my own being, meditation does that simply.

  7. You are not different from your ideas. Ideas don’t argue. It is you who are arguing. Ego is the psychological version of your body. “You” are both your body and mind/ego. Maintaining oneself means maintaining one’s ego. Even in love, it is you/your ego who is in love. So, there is no way you can negate your ego. You can only change your ego-contents.

  8. Thoughts have the ability to take me to silence,
    Thought is a great force.
    This tool can actually see its own limitations, shut up, observe and reemerge from the observation…
    When they realize the importance of silence or observation or are experiencing love and joy; thoughts have the wisdom to shut up.
    These discuusions are doing this here…..
    That is why spiritual discussions are deeply effective.
    Silence heals, thoughts reveal and use this wisdom and cause silence with ease…..beautiful loop.

  9. The ego is the ‘I-Thought’ – a false imagined entity, that is identified with the body-mind complex, as an inward entity.

    Pure Being-Awareness, without any identification with the ephemeral illusions of phenomena, is you already existing identity. Your True Self.

    It is only thought that identifies with these and other adjuncts as itself, which is an imaginary delusion, and responsible for all ‘psychological suffering’.

    • Pure Being-Awareness is the Present Primordial Fact.
      Prior to any intellectual inference by thought.

      Everything else, beside the immediate, factual, present Being-Awareness, is only an inference, or a projection of thought.

      If Awareness is not there first, nothing else can be directly known. First ‘You’ ARE, only then can thought come in and identify with some insentient phenomenal object.

      Being is Present Knowing. This is your True Identify.
      … Otherwise, you remain a prisoner of thought/imagination.

      The identification with any ‘adjuncts’ is thought thinking and identifying with the perceptions that are seen in Awareness.

      ‘You’ are already there, even before thought identifies, and before it imagines that it is ‘this’, or it is ‘that’ (a phenomenal object).

      This is basic to the understanding of what it means to be without the limitations of separation from mistaken, isolated identity, and it is the revelation that removes the suffering from imagined separation.

  10. AC, talking about silence as silence is sufficient. Describing what is silence is an innocent and foolish mistake all these past Guru’s have made. Let’s talk about our thoughts, let silence be. Thoughts can never describe it. It is a law of reality, in ancient wisdom they called it Maya.

  11. Post meditative wisdom is causing harm, it becomes an ideal for thoughts to mimick.

    Describing silence is like describing time…you have to use time as an experience to describe time, not possible to explain it otherwise.

  12. We can only clock it, quantify the clock, measure the movement of the clock, use this measurement but yet if we didn’t experience time , no way can we explain it.

  13. 20 minutes or so of silence is sufficient for the mind and body, overeating can cause obesity and diabetes… Lol. Nibbling the whole day on small bites is healthy as well.

    We get to REM sleep for only a few minutes during the night for the same reason.
    We all stay in touch with this dimension through our lives…during REM sleep.

  14. This is exactly what the original article was talking about, right? There is a shared apparatus of words, all pointing apparently to perception, but conception differs. There are habits here repeating. It is not possible in my immediate relatiinships to investigate further. Is it possible here? But that is result seeking, no? Trying to fix something?

    • It is possible everywhere…we do seek results , that is life. Even my pet wants to attain happiness, he is waiting for me to finish my chat, he has his toy tucked in his mouth, wants to play snatch and is looking at me intently…

  15. Truth is three simple words,
    In spiritual discussions platform we discuss it in our own ways,
    How these simple three words are expressed will keep evolving, technology and medical science will some day make this realization simple to attain.
    This art has been confined to poets and writers , they did what they could.
    Maybe now we can someday make a dome for silence…go in get out completely healed.
    Religion and spiritual books will die there natural death having served their purpose.

  16. I see need arising in me. Faced with chaos of thought’s making. This need simplly feeds thinking. There is nothing to realise. There is nothing to attain. This is what is…

  17. Arun, your point is that ‘post-meditative wisdom’ is confusing, if not detrimental in making things complicated. It takes one into thought. Yes, it is perhaps like a mythic tunnel that one must journey through before the sun closely following destroys you (Gilgamesh). It feels worse than ignorance. It is totally arduous. And no experience at all. There is nowhere to locate….

  18. To love and be loved – is the conventional view of our natural state. And yet such is the misery and confusion in the problems of our lives. Challenge is inescapable. And problems are self-generated. So what does safety mean amidst all this?

  19. Yeah, but as usual:
    The words and the ideas themselves, are inadequate.

    It is vital to see the nature and significance of Passive Observation. Then the light of Awareness is no longer just another idea, but a direct recognition of that very real transformative factor, which is your very own Self.

  20. …..which is your very own Self”…..AC is back…love you my friend, be direct. Say what you understand and know, this directness is the need of the hour, it is 2016 , not 1930. We have evolved.

  21. Discussion can be pretty much like traffic. Cars driving on the same side of the road give the impression of heading in the same direction, contrary to cars in the opposite lane. But really, drivers and passengers have their own routes and destinations. We might be waiting together at a traffic light, even look at one another, greet- but each is in his or her own car. There are usually a number of incidents which challenge drivers, evoking fear and anger, but the traffic regulations more or less function.

  22. It seems inquiry or dialogue uncovers this traffic of ideas. These are our psychological vehicles. Then perhaps we can look about, listen in the quiet, breath clean air. But without fully percieving the nature of this traffic, moment by moment. One curses the traffic: but one IS The traffic!

  23. Thoughts is our being…they are very important and useful. This whole exercise is to regulate them, the traffic needs to be managed, guided and we should obey certain rules to protect ourselves and others…
    Silence makes me realighn my inner reality, thoughts than become useful tools. We need to drive to work and home, we follow rules and once in a while take a break from the city, relax and enjoy …life is fun when we can drive and travel, hence traffic on the road is inevitable.

  24. So here we are, just you and me. No pretence around thought; we are inescapably thought, whether solid or fluid. We can manage it. We know what to do. We drop into silence. Renewal and reemergence into the world. Like breathing. This is a characterisation, right? It helps to make sense of experience and affords a sense of ability to respond. It provides a foothold in the chaos which is to manage and regulate. Arun, it sounds little different from modern life coaches and general advocation for meditation as practice. And, still, what you say might well be the fruit of awareness: to live an ordinary and orderly life. We are questioning ideas, not one another, right. What is the effect of such a characterisation?

  25. Yes, it is possible, isn’t it. And characterisations, in my experience, faciltates assessment or evaluation of where i am and where another is. It’s a conceptual framework i reference to assess and respond. The thing is, i find myself getting worse, i guess, because there are ideas about’s happening and what i need to do – or what another should do. I do this, i get that. It feels highly self-conscious. And i cling to my frame of reference, especially when challenged by another, as a need to express or assert it. This is me. And as you’ve said plainly on other occasions, it is sugnificant to focus on the thoughts. Totally agree. We cannot focus on silence. And this quality of sharing brings that silence. I am not afraid of being misunderstood. You do not need my understanding. Only respect. So, yes, lets rest…

  26. “And this quality of sharing brings that silence. I am not afraid of being misunderstood. You do not need my understanding. Only respect. So, yes, lets rest.”……beautiful.

  27. No AC.
    No rum.
    No past.
    No future.
    No other.
    Except in the mental ‘tar-baby’ of imagination.
    … All the ‘me-thoughts of projection and fantasy.

    Just BE the silent Awareness of the present immediate fact; as Awareness, there is no ‘other’, but thought – as an entity, you continue to live in the ‘pig-sty’ of its own imagination.

    It is a limited, separative pool of misery.

  28. It is called ‘Turiya'; the ‘Fourth State’ (a ‘stateless State’).

    It is the background of selfless, Silent Awareness.
    … IT is present even Now! Only it is overlooked.

    The ‘me-thoughts’ mistakenly capture all the attention.

  29. Creator-Preserver-Destroyer is at the level of God and ITs Creation;
    …The Mighty ‘I AM’.

    IT is ‘Being-Awareness’, but not really illustrated in this diagram.

    ‘Turiya’ is pure, objectless Awareness, which is beyond the ‘I AM'; beyond Consciousness and all its phenomena objects.

    The ‘I AM’ enfolded into itself,
    Is pure Awareness, with no objects.

  30. At the end of the day,Silent mind seems preferable & more important than anything the mind comes up with out the collective whatever,its gods,its ideals,its philosophies, the whole caboodle, its like saying there nothing in the mind that’s not the past,there’s nothing of “Actuality” in it when its in movement, its a cartoon.
    Strange Brew.

  31. Yes. The purpose of words, concepts, symbols, and ideas all fail, if there is not the Direct Seeing to where they are pointing.

    Dictum:
    “The word s not the thing,
    The description is not the described.” (JK)

    • “A few days before his death, in his final statement, he(JK) declared that nobody among either his associates or the general public had understood what had happened to him (as a conduit of the teaching) nor had they understood the teaching itself” – wikipedia.

    • K is Like masters study of this subject. Maybe that is the error. We have had some illiterate realized saints also in the past?
      People with acute depression have also had this transformation. U.G Krishnamurti, Eckhart tolle…
      Bhudist teachings emphasised on Meditation, Mindfulness/ Vippassana has shown good results.
      Many benifit from this simple unwinding practice.
      K teachings have had success, students from his schools are doing some real useful work in education…
      Meditation is becoming popular…the art will evolve, become widespread and shall be understood, it is just matter of time. Truth shall prevail.

    • It seems such a sweeping statement,the teaching is simple, its living it is where the catch is.
      The Worlds Crazy,an open Loony bin without walls,it seems to need a massive upheaval to clear the deck.
      Step totally out of the stream or do this,that,or,the other,we do what we can,inward & outward.

  32. The battle is from the nature of majority of seeds of thoughts that are produced from each one of us. They may clash with one another and produce dangers or merge to produce harmony. The prevention of producing the seeds of thoughts with choice less awareness is the only solution to remain in one’s own reality.

  33. Yes, agreed. Trust requires a shared understanding which necessitates process and communication. Protection is for the sense of separate self and this is a conventional matter in conventional engagement. That’s what dialogue uncovers, doesn’t it. One has observed those qualities which help and hinder inquiry directly. A movement between the personal and impersonal. Yes, that gap comes alive and in it one observes the nature of trust.

Leave a Reply